Episode 2

Winifred Parnes: Top workforce trends influencing the media industry

Workforces 3.0: Media Industry Edition. This episode covers how workforce strategy will be more critical than ever for the media industry in 2023. Tune in to hear from Winifred Parnes, Design Ops at HBO. We discuss: the Top Workforce Trends Influencing the Media Industry this year; the importance of retaining top freelance talent; tips for creating better experiences for external talent and teams that manage them

June 19, 2024

Podcast transcript

Casey [00:00:04:02 - 00:00:27:18]

Welcome to another episode of Workforces 3.0, where we talk about all things related to the future of talent and workforces. I'm super excited about our guest today Winifred Parnes who is from HBO running design apps and is going to talk to us about the future of workforces in the media industry. So let's get started. Welcome, Winifred.

Can you tell me a little bit about your role at HBO and how you're working with Workforce Strategy there?

Winifred Parnes [00:00:35:22 - 00:01:11:16]

Yeah, so I'm the designer's manager at HBO, which is now Warner Brothers Discovery and the design team. Historically, HBO was a bit more siloed as an internal team, but in the time that I've been there, let the be given room to become more embedded earlier with cross-functional teams and with direct and visible, embedded with. Sorry. So I recently moved out of the interactive design team into the larger ops org, and that with plans to create a more unified ops team.

And the talent strategy at HBO has always kind of felt more as a place where people who love HBO come to work on projects where like the shows, the ones they grew up watching in their homes. So it really creates like a more passionate selection of people when you around you, when you're kind of bringing in that talent workforce.

It's a really diverse group.

Casey [00:01:35:13 - 00:02:00:21]

That's amazing. So it's amazing to have passionate people working for you and for your brand. Do you find that's the case with both internal and external talent? So when you're working with freelancers, which I gather you work with quite a lot in your role, do you find that they're also coming in, bringing that passion and just, you know, obviously HBO, Warner Brothers are, yeah, long lasting brands that have been around forever.

And like you said, we all grew up with these networks. So how does that that play a role across the different types of talent?

Winifred Parnes [00:02:09:00 - 00:02:32:19]

You definitely find people approaching more than necessarily where you would normally have to reach out heavily because it is an environment where people want to work with HBO, they want to work on projects. There's something in their head that kind of they they almost equate to HBO. There's always like the story of like, you know, The Wire or, you know, or The Sopranos.

So it applies to both like a freelance contract, but also agencies like you'll find people actively like I actually find people actively reaching out to me often and, you know, saying like, you know, I saw you guys are doing this. It seems like a project If you guys need someone you know, do working with three modeling or even friends like my you know, my my kid just graduated.

You guys have an internship program which is which is different for me from from previous jobs, where I do actually have people reaching out and saying that this is something that struck a chord with them and they'd be interested in working on the next season of House of Dragons. If if it comes if the opportunity comes up.

Casey [00:03:18:03 - 00:03:39:13]

Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, that level of employer branding is so powerful and like broadly from from your experience and what you've seen across the industry as a whole, like what role are freelancers playing today? Or maybe how has it changed in the last few years? Obviously, having people who want to come into your business and work for you is is a good thing.

Winifred Parnes [00:03:45:18 - 00:04:15:24]

Yeah, and I do. Honestly, I see freelancers have a much stronger hold now with the needs of companies and just with the growing pace of the industry, people just consume content content. Right now, they're just consuming it. And the trade, the trends change daily. Like, I just don't think there's ever been a time when the pace was so rapid like this where, you know, what you created yesterday is different than the needs that are created today.

And so it's like it's just impossible to keep pace if your external workforce is just not as apt or quick. And I think that like I mean, we all see it. There's this constant growing cost of hiring and retaining full time staff. So it's just like good business to have that budgetary space to bring in this new like top class talent that can be hyper specific on a project.

And then also as a company, stay like fiscally nimble.

Casey [00:04:48:05 - 00:05:22:12]

Yeah, absolutely. I was reading some recent data that was talking about the media industry being one of the most impacted or will probably be the most impacted by layoffs, and also that companies that are laying off are also looking towards the external workforce or even the laid off employees trying to bring them back in as freelancers. So just considering that, I mean, how much do you think the usage of these types of workers will grow in the new kind of economic downturn we're facing, or possibly on the end, depending on who you ask?

And you mentioned retention. So in addition to maybe using more freelancers, what role does retention have when you think about freelance retention, which might not be the most traditional type, but I think still probably plays a big part in being able to source quickly and stay nimble, like you say.

Winifred Parnes [00:05:42:02 - 00:06:12:15]

Yeah, I think it's it's two parter. It's source quickly, but also retain them. Right. Like they they are almost your your client and I really think it has to be treated like a top priority agenda item and like just knowing that the dynamic of your staff workforce may not no longer be a static fact is really key. You know, that mindset of understanding that we need to be reliant on external talent.

And if you're not bringing in both reliable but also creative contractors and you know, leaders need to be able to assure that their staff that there will be resources for them to lean on to mitigate that burnout. You know, like they need to be able to just know that if there are layoffs, that there are resources that can be accessed.

And if you're not prepped properly to be able to bring those people in as needed and not have it takes, you know, six months to bring someone in. That difference in time could also mean whether or not you retain your current staff or whether they stay or go.

Casey [00:06:55:15 - 00:07:13:06]

Yeah, absolutely. Are there any trends you see in terms of like causing delays in this? Like are there things that impact, you know, someone's starting quickly or, you know, being able to find talent that you've personally struggled with or you've seen the industry struggle with at large?

Winifred Parnes [00:07:13:08 - 00:07:37:08]

I mean, I think it's there's there's a myriad of reasons, right? There's there's compliance, there's legal, there's there's all these layers that you have to go through. And if you don't have like a set plan, right, or go to work, say I go to my manager and say I need someone for a project. And if they can't just point me in the direction where this has been approved, you can go here.

Right. And if you only say have a few options, you're always going to go to the same options. Right? And they may or may not be a good fit for the project that you're working on. And you're really kind of you're stuck in a bit of a pickle stand, right where, you know, you have options. They may not me may not be the best option.

And I think that the larger the company, obviously, the more layers of that to get to, you know, to even just get a system that's approved for you to reach out to. And I mean, particularly obviously at HBO, Warner Brothers cover things like that. We're a huge company, so you don't have the freedom to just say, you know, my cousin would be great for this, right?

That's just that's just not the reality of it. It has to be this is the company that you can go to reach out to them, see who they have. So if if it's always the same company, you you have limited resources. And I think there's a real shift happening in people's mindsets know that, like, are we living to work or working to live?

Right. So when you get the ideas, do you want people who love what they do? Right. Where are you going? And are you is it accessible to you to go to the place where the people that you are speaking to, to bring in for your projects actually love what they're working on? You know, and I just think that creates that unmeasurable a Y of like better quality design and content, which maybe there's no metrics for that.

But me being able to go directly to one place where I know that I can always get new ness or meet new people who might bring in, you know, something I'm working on today that was different than something yesterday. And I think that's really essential in the media industry. And I do see where this is not going to change any time soon.

Where freelancers do have the upper hand in this. Right. So I see that some leaders are still struggling to release some of that control and be adaptive to this trend. And I think that they're going to have to have a shift in their mindset to accept that they need to start looking to new resources and new companies outside the ones that they've always used.

Right. Otherwise, how will we be able to bring in newness?

Casey [00:10:07:13 - 00:10:35:11]

Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, it's it's a big challenge for companies today is to figure out how to let their employees get access to the right talent and also build a talent pool. Because I think I think from what you've said and I think from conversations we've also had before, it's it's so important to be able to know who you have in your talent pool, what skill sets you have so that you can, you know, action them and hire them as quickly as you need to when you need to.

Because, you know, the fact is you say it takes six months to hire someone. And I would imagine you don't usually have six months to deliver what you probably need. So there's such a Yeah.

Winifred Parnes [00:10:47:13 - 00:11:14:19]

You know, I mean, I think anyone who really does work heavily in project management does see that that like often by the time you realized you need additional help, you're already into the project, right? You're already behind the timeline when you realize you need additional help. And that's I mean, I'm sure that is across other other industries, but that doesn't seem like that's just specific to media.

But it is so often, you know, by the time teams and producers have run through the SSW and you've kind of brought in an agency and you've got to this point where you have kick off and now you have this truncated schedule of when something needs to be done is often when you realize I need additional help on this project.

Casey [00:11:36:19 - 00:11:57:13]

Yeah, that makes sense. And it must be. Yes, so much to juggle. And do you think, given the media industry and you know what you're trying to do on a day to day, this is more of an IM like there's more of an impact for this type of industry that's doing a lot of creative work then maybe across other industries.

I know like it's been a place where freelancers have been working for a long, long time. So do you think that's been like improved over the years or do you think it's still a bit stuck in the past and like in need of innovation? How do you see the I guess, the freelancer experience as a whole being approached by media companies and the industry in general?

Winifred Parnes [00:12:22:17 - 00:12:47:02]

I think that does happen in all industries. I think in this industry in particular, it is it is probably more difficult, right, Because when you fold in on top of it that you're working with creative people, you know, and they've always behave, say differently than, you know, the needs of a designer is so specifically different than an accountant.

It's just, you know, it's just that simple. And, you know, I think that that idea of like, you know, happy wife, happy life, you know, often in a design studio, really, you're just about finding a comfort space for designers. And the larger the companies, the harder that can be. Right. And I just don't I don't see a future where that idea of like free lunch and games that work have that draw anymore.

And you know, it's it is it is a bit of an antiquated view. And I think freelancers have always come kind of with that mindset of like quality of life and scheduling work around their life, maybe not life around work. And now that's even more relevant than it has ever been before. So it's even just knowing that you've retained a very large group of, say, high quality freelancers, even that doesn't mean that they might be available for the project.

And so I just don't see a world where it's ever a large enough pool, right? It has to constantly be growing your circle of people that you can that you can access and bring in and especially with young designers, because I mean, we talk about all the time like what I knew yesterday, I don't know enough for tomorrow.

And the young designers are just they come out of school already knowing more than I know. They may not know how to do it for me. Right. But even just their skill set is so far beyond, say, when. When you know what I was doing ten years ago. So you really need to just always push forward and find a route to be able to access the the younger designers and meet them, you know, meet them, meet them at where they are in their life.

Casey [00:14:52:20 - 00:15:12:00]

Yeah, that's, that's there. Like all such good takeaways. And I think, like you said, your talent pool can never be big enough. It's, you know, I think sometimes what we hear is like, people don't even have a place to begin with, the talent pool. So, you know, for for you who's been doing this for a long time, as you say, you're constantly trying to build yours.

And making bigger, I think is just like a first good step is to like create one if you're, you know, right.

Winifred Parnes [00:15:19:16 - 00:15:20:13]


Casey [00:15:20:15 - 00:15:42:09]

The network I think like that's a really good your first piece of advice and yeah I think it's it's hard right like where do you keep it How do you share it with your colleagues? How do you remember all of the good talent you've worked with over the years? It's like, Yeah, right. Yes. And I know that, right?

Winifred Parnes [00:15:42:09 - 00:16:04:14]

It's a, it's a nice problem to have. But also, like, how do you share those resources as well. Which, which is, oh, that's obviously always been an issue. Right. Like my, my apartment may not work as closely with a different department, so I may not even know, you know, a project they're working on that would have been a good fit for this person I just worked with.

Have you share those resources in a large company? How do I how do I share my network to facilitate that? We continue to retain them, right? By giving them more work without even being able to properly share resources across an org because my talent pool should be both stable right?

Casey [00:16:27:03 - 00:17:06:13]

Yeah, absolutely. I think I think, you know, in this age of like social media and connectivity and information, it's a clear gap in the market that, you know, we need to be able to do this within companies and we need to really start prioritizing this external talent pool. And the skill sets and really, you know, making it work both better internally for the company so that they can access the talent, but also making sure it's a good experience for the freelancers, too, so that they're actually active and active part of that talent pool who, you know, like you say, they might not always be available, but at least when they are, we want them, you know, to be able to come back. So do you have any advice for people like from the retention standpoint, like how do you provide a really good experience for external workers today? Like what are they looking for? Like you said, it's not always pool tables and in a lot of cases they might be remote. So how do you how do you approach that?

How do you make sure they want to come back?

Winifred Parnes [00:17:31:06 - 00:18:06:02]

So I think I see this a lot, probably to an annoying way about like listen more and say less. But there is a traditional system in place where we don't do exit interviews with our freelancers and in my experience, I can, you know, I can't speak to other companies. We really only do it with full time employees. And how can we ever find ways to be a better suited company to retain, engage contract workers in a smarter way?

We simply do not ask them, right? We need to talk to them during that kind of interview process as we're almost kind of like we need to talk to them or we're onboarding them. We need to talk to them while they're working with our staff. And then after the job is complete, it's not just about the actual job that they did for us, but the job that we did for them as a company, as as people, you know, as managers and, you know, what are those learnings we can take and use for them, but also for the next contractor and that critical feedback and be uncomfortable.

And I think for a long time it's kind of just treated as freelancers come and go. So maybe maybe those learnings aren't, you know, aren't an advantage to us, but they are. And I don't know if that's become integrated as our thinking patterns yet with external talent. And I think that I really think is is going to be important in the next couple of years.

Casey [00:19:07:15 - 00:19:19:18]

Listening is so important, understanding what the talent wants. I think you're right. It's it's something we need to figure out from the first impression to the whole experience to paying on time.

Winifred Parnes [00:19:19:20 - 00:19:23:07]

Yeah, paying on time. Yes.

Casey [00:19:23:09 - 00:19:43:19]

I think it's so important and it's so, so often that freelancers aren't getting paid correctly or on time or have to deal with like the admin. And you think such a basic thing should be easy to solve for a big company. Yet like even something as basic as that tends to become a pain for a lot of freelancers.

And the reason they don't go back to companies.

Winifred Parnes [00:19:46:18 - 00:20:17:15]

Yeah, because it shouldn't. It, it shouldn't be the second part of their job, right. And it's never intentional. And I think that that, you know, even that being conveyed is very comforting to freelancers and from from personal experience. I have had companies who were very, very candid saying it is a slow process. You know, I apologize. But just so you know, we don't pay net 15, we pay in net 60.

That conversation is a tangible moment where you are like honest and engaged with them with healthy expectations instead of the second part of their job of working with you is them having to chase payment. And that's just that's not a soft skill that comes naturally to especially designers. And it can also be really uncomfortable for for younger contract workers.

You know, it's it's a very like what do they do next? What's too much if I push too hard to not be brought in back again to work, you know, and then if that's really their take away of working with you, that that kind of general anxiety of whether or not they were going to get paid in a timely fashion, you can't unring that bell.

Casey [00:21:07:21 - 00:21:37:03]

Yeah, it's true. It's it's like these people are people they're not necessarily vendors or companies. And I think then that's how they get classified in the payroll system. So it's right, it's yeah, it's something that I think everyone agrees needs to be fixed and yeah hopefully that's the next step of external workforce. Innovation is like these little things that create a better experience for these people, starting with these like basic elements.

So yeah, I think, yeah, I totally agree because you.

Winifred Parnes [00:21:41:22 - 00:22:06:23]

See you're see you do it. You see people eventually almost getting to the point where they think, would it be easier for me to be full time. Right. Instead of kind of always having to chase invoices. And I, I think that that's that's not a great place to be because this industry in particular is going to need more freelancers.

You know, almost every industry is going to need more freelancers. So we want people to know that there are components of that that are just simple and straightforward, do the work and get paid in a timely fashion.

Casey [00:22:22:10 - 00:22:59:03]

Yeah, we want them to feel valued and and not have yeah, not not choose something as big as like becoming a full time employee after, you know, choosing the freelance life for a reason or something. Great. Totally. I want you to quickly just talk about this idea of distributed creativity. It's in distributed talent. It's been something I've been reading a lot about recently, and I guess it's you know, it's just the idea that now, you know, post pandemic, we're just experiencing, you know, the remote move to remote and that we can have remote workers and it can work really well.

And I think for a lot of creative industries, this has been a game changer just because there's more access to more talents, freelancers who are working all over the country or all over the world in some cases. How do you think that's impacting the creative industry as a whole, having access to more people coming from different perspectives and different markets, maybe even.

Winifred Parnes [00:23:22:03 - 00:23:52:16]

Like I like I love the shift to you personally to disaggregate like creativity and that idea that like it generates a creative product where like, you know, no single person's contribution determines the result, right? That's such a just in that the moment that's such an amazing concept. But I think creative solutions to hybrid work environment more than just remote actually drove that necessity.

And I think there's been these really wonderful outcomes of that. And, and I think that they can be used in the future in office, remote hybrid, whatever the conditions are. And I'm hopeful that we take those learnings and push them forward because it makes space more often than ever before for the less heard opinions to find a place in the room.

Right. Those people who were never really afforded that moment to contribute. And I think it's it's showing these ways where almost companies can scale in a sustainable way because maybe people who never before had a voice do. So Now you have more actionable choices in the room, you know, in different places coming from different places. And, you know, I don't know if it's a straightforward like Northstar for the future, but I think it's it's really opened a door that was never there before for for people to have a voice in in in how creative gets created.

Simply put, you know and I think you know, there's there's this concept of diverse designers creates diverse design. Right. And if your your your audience is diverse, which how can it not be media as global Now, shouldn't your design be diverse? Shouldn't you speak to your audience? And how do you do that without really giving space at the table for those for those for that commentary?

Casey [00:25:35:01 - 00:25:58:01]

Yeah, that's so well said. I think you're right, too. It's it's so important for innovation that we include this type of diversity. And like you say, media is global now. And I guess it's just so fundamental that companies are, you know, empowering people like you in roles like, you know, design jobs to be able to access that talent globally as well.

Do you is there anything you you see in terms of like the future that you you would like to be better on that front or like that you already maybe see in terms of trends of like how the industry is going in terms of embracing this kind of concept of of distributed talent.

Winifred Parnes [00:26:16:23 - 00:26:43:15]

I don't know if we're there yet, but I but it's what I want. It's a trend I want. It's it's what I say in every room. And I am I'm probably ad nauseum to people, but it's it's what I want. It's what I believe. And I know that it's it's a slow it's a slow will to move away from the idea of it's the way we always did it right.

I, I everyone's heard that everyone's heard that in their life and I get it that it's complicated, you know, to to shift and move and change. But I really want that idea of to to help us to move towards IQ over IQ and that there is space for us to talk about how people got to where they are and how that creates a better employee or a better freelance contractor that not just what is the four lines on their resume, a sum them up as as who they are.

And, you know, if we if we just keep looking to bring in freelance or to hire people from the same small pond every day when we have the opportunity to fish in an ocean like why, why do that? You know? And for me, I try to talk about it often that, you know, background and education is a blocker in some in some cases.

And just simply changing the verbiage in your job descriptions, like are we unintentionally being discriminatory without without even realizing it, or are we still only safely interviewing people who look and sound like me? You know, that that mirror of me, or am I looking outside my comfort zone at who is interesting for this role? Who could be a dynamic, you know, a contribution to this team.

And I think what people forget is when you bring in incredible freelancers, they affect your staff employees. They can engage them in ways that actually end up you having better retention with your staff because of their interactions with those freelancers, to drive them to be more interested in engaged in their job again, you know, so you want interesting people in the room and not everyone checks all the boxes on the job description.

You know, how do we reframe those conversations to be more inclusive?

Casey [00:29:09:10 - 00:29:38:11]

Yeah, I love that. I think it's it's just it's such a good point. And, you know, it's another, I think, really good case for why we need to ensure as companies that we're giving a really good experience to freelancers so that we get them to continue to come back time and time again to prepare kind of good vibes and good qualities into a company to, like you say, have a knock on impact to other freelancers or full time employees or their managers.

Even so it's like, yeah, it's just kind of so important that we think about them too. Yeah, I love that. So we're going to need to wrap up here in a minute. This is just been such a great conversation, but do you have any like final advice for someone who's maybe trying to build an external workforce program at their company, who's trying to make it better for people like you to be able to work more, you know, in a more agile, streamlined way with freelance talent?

Like, what would you say to them just to make sure that like they can, you know, do as much good in this space as possible and really create a program that is accessible for you and also efficient for you and gives you access to all of these people that you want to have in your network.

Winifred Parnes [00:30:29:07 - 00:30:56:12]

I think it's about having cross-functional team conversations. I think in the past some of those decisions were kind of made in the same way say, you know, you shifting from Gmail to Outlook, decisions have always been made at larger companies for you, right? And often people just kind of decide like, okay, this is you know, we now use JIRA instead of Confluence, right?

Those decisions are just made for you. But if you can if you can make, you know, maker, I can't think of the word, but like if you can make a case for your needs. Right. And then I go to another team and I discuss my needs with them and theirs are aligned and their pain points are aligned with mine.

Right now I have two teams that can speak to that, and if you really interact and engage with your cross-functional teams, almost always there's overlap of pain, points of needs. And I think that there's power in that. When you can go in a larger company and say, this is not just a direct need that affects me, but it will also advocate for this team and this team and there's weight to that, you know, So I would advocate for people to reach out to their peers within a company and have those conversations with them about where their struggles are or who they're having conversations with, and then take all that and collect it in a cohesive way that tells the story of what your needs are. And I think that there's there's real power to that in a company that you if you go with that actual data of this, would help multiple teams. Right? And these are the reasons I think you're given the opportunity more often than not to propose, say, a new company to work with or a new agency to work with, and we need to stop just using the same companies.

And that's not going to happen if you don't collect that information in a in a really clear, cohesive way to speak to the story of your needs within the company.

Casey [00:32:35:14 - 00:32:58:00]

Yeah, that makes total sense. Have you have you experienced that in terms of like managing your own freelance network? Have you seen like peers of yours also experience the same challenges of of Yeah. Not having maybe as fast of access or easy access to the people they want to work with. Is that like then something you experience personally.

Winifred Parnes [00:32:58:02 - 00:33:20:02]

Yes and I think that that's across the board of a very common pain point. I think even in a in a smaller company, I've had the experience where it's it's always just bring in the same person, right? That's the old adage of like, well, can you just can you just have this person come back in again on Tuesday because we worked with them before.

And then whereas in a large company, it's it's how do you how do you bring in a new company to facilitate you building a talent pool? You know, it's it's kind of the same problem, different scenario, but it's still the same pain point. And I've definitely experienced that in all size organizations. I've worked with. But I will say at HBO, I've had some really interesting conversations where people will reach out and say, I was speaking to this company.

Have you spoken to them? Do you want to meet with them? We're meeting with them next week and it's a really lovely experience to have people inside your your own org reach out to to discuss like, is this also happening for you? Right. Do you want to talk about it? What would it be good for you for us to make a plan together?

Casey [00:34:17:09 - 00:34:55:14]

That sounds amazing. Yeah. To have that kind of camaraderie and being able to share, especially around things like talents, where it is important to kind of build a network together. So yeah, totally. I can totally appreciate that. And yeah, I mean, I think overall this is like a trend we're just seeing across the world, across all companies, is like the need for innovation in this space in particular that so much of the process that companies, especially enterprises and big companies are using media industry being one of the biggest industries, probably when you're talking about the stuff, but is that they just need to innovate and they need to come up with new ways because the way it works has changed. So the way we need to create our workforces needs to change along with that. And it's a bit behind. So, you know, it's just it's been so fascinating. I think, you know, following this especially for the last few years, because the changes have been so big and accelerated by, you know, all of the things happening in the world.

So, yeah, hopefully we'll see it all happen this year. Maybe 2023 is the year anyway, I think.

Winifred Parnes [00:35:24:01 - 00:35:50:20]

Yeah, Yeah, it's, it's, it's hard because you know, especially with design and freelance, it is innovation. You know, someone who has decided to build their own and basically put it out the world and say like, Do you like this? Do you want me to do this for you is like brave and incredible and innovative. And then on the other side, you know, it's media companies.

They are dinosaurs, you know, but we love them for it, right? Because it makes you think of things you remember from your childhood. And now they're doing this. So they're here still for a reason. Right. But there has to be a point where we find find a middle ground to to to move forwards in some in some way that's innovative.

Casey [00:36:13:11 - 00:36:35:19]

Yeah, I couldn't have said that better. Yeah, I absolutely agree. Well, we're yeah, we're out of time. But I always love to end with just, like, a little a few questions just to get to know you better that aren't necessarily workforce related. So I would love to know if there's like an app or maybe it's like a website or something that you like just couldn't live without.

It doesn't have to be work related, but it can be.

Winifred Parnes [00:36:40:15 - 00:37:05:13]

I mean, I don't want it to be work related, but I don't think I could. I don't think I could do without Slack. And I think I also have know because I feel like life integrates with work. I have workspaces in my slack that are not work related, but I think it's honestly it's slack also just because it's in the way my life functions.

The idea of knowing that you can simply put, do not disturb on something, but also the difference between someone sending an email. I know that it's it's not pressing, but if you send me a slack message, it is I think it's it's helpful to plan plan your your expectations of what people need from you. And I do that with Slack.

Casey [00:37:29:13 - 00:37:50:03]

Yeah. Slack is like a modern communication tool. It's like I can't imagine life without it. And even though I didn't have it for the beginning of my career, it's yeah, a little game changer. No. Oh, yeah. And then, like, it could be an HBO TV show. Or maybe it's you're more like into podcasting, but do you have a favorite?

Yeah. Like show or something like that that you are loving right now?

Winifred Parnes [00:37:57:00 - 00:38:39:17]

I'm actually for someone works in media. I am not great with TV like my but I will say a friend, Meredith Black, co-hosts a podcast called Reconsidering. She is also in design apps and it is a principle that really is important to me because there's so many facets to design. Design apps is a true principle, and hers is a podcast about how to make a life while making a living, which to me is like so simple, so smart.

Casey [00:38:39:19 - 00:38:42:21]

I love that it's called reconsidering.

Winifred Parnes [00:38:42:23 - 00:38:47:16]

And it's just how can you make a life by making a living?

Casey [00:38:47:18 - 00:39:01:08]

I love that. Definitely going to check that out. And then do you have like a favorite, like pick me up tradition or office snack or anything like that that you kind of look forward to in your working day?

Winifred Parnes [00:39:01:10 - 00:39:26:15]

It's popcorn. It's always popcorn. And and at home it's popcorn and then in the office, everyone. So they'll do screenings. And there's a lovely woman on our floor who has we have snacks, slack lets you know when there are snacks of course in the kitchen and there'll be leftover popcorn from screenings. So it's always popcorn. That's for me.

Casey [00:39:26:17 - 00:39:34:05]

I love popcorn and I miss us movie popcorn. There's nothing quite like it.

Winifred Parnes [00:39:34:07 - 00:39:51:03]

It's not the same or quite as bad. Like mother, I'm like, at home. It's like homemade popcorn with, like a nutritional yeast on it at work. It's movie popcorn, too. I feel like those are not even in the same species that I think.

Casey [00:39:51:04 - 00:39:57:22]

I think cinema like proper cinema. Popcorn is an even considered real food, but it's no.

Winifred Parnes [00:39:57:24 - 00:40:02:15]

No, it's like how ketchup is a vegetable.

Casey [00:40:02:17 - 00:40:12:07]

Exactly. Well, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for chatting with me today and for, you know, for all of your amazing insight.

Winifred Parnes [00:40:12:09 - 00:40:13:07]

Thanks for having me.

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